But the sculptures are always being modulated, to some extent, and I think deliberately so, according to the wishes of the carvers and their patrons, whenever someone walks up to them, whenever one wants to look at them. Subtle differences in the three lintels suggest that the compositions were completed by two or three different artists. And that is where a lot of these lintels come from, are these small communities that were under the thumb of Yaxchilan. The image and the inscription both reinforce the reign of the ruler and his dynastic ties, in this case via his wife. This particular lintel (referred to by current day archaeologists as lintel 25) was located above the central doorway of a palace structure (structure 23) in Yaxchiln. The glyphs spell out her name. During the Classic Period (ca. Other stone, however, is almost crystalline in hardness. Her elaborately carved huipil is trimmed with fringe and pearls. And they were then combined with a clay called palygorskite, which is found in only a few locations. Direct link to jay.vanderveen.personal's post The males also let blood,, Posted 7 years ago. CUNO: So we have three sites, if I have my numbers correct, El Tunel being one of them; Yaxchilan being another; and Bonampak being a third. But tell us who Dana and Ginger Lamb were and why they feature so prominently in your book. All rights reserved. And also liked to indulge in himself the fun of roughing it, which mustve been every scouts dream. What was a craftsman called when they were in training? Before the construction of Structure 23, there was a hiatus in building at Yaxchiln for about 150 years. Some of these stairways also show ball playing. It is probably made of shell or jade plaques, as are her wrist cuffs. Her necklace also appears to have a pectoral depiction of the sun god. So that if you see a stele or an upright stone monolith on a Maya plaza, for the Maya, it was a being or a ruler, usually, who is shown in perpetual, almost frozen, dance. And the carver that the local lord employed to create this piece, a person whose name we know, Mayuy, was almost certainly from an antagonistic dynasty to the north, a place called Piedras Negras, which is quite renowned in the history of Maya culture and civilization. For example, Medical linacs operating at high energies will produce activated neutrons which will be scattered outside the treatment bunker maze with a dose rate that depends on the maze cross section. Such Maya rituals as bloodletting were only enacted on slaves. Theyre like Swiss cheese, Jim. The uppermost describes Itzamnaaj Bahlam, where the second raised section describes Lady Xoc. The relief panel would have been installed parallel to the floor of the entrance of a temple at La Pasadita. Unfortunately, like many Maya ruins, the site has since been looted, and retracing the original locations of the displaced works is challenging. Tell us what partage means in principle and what it means in practice. Structure 33 rests on the side of the main plaza, making it a focal point for the area. Hooper 2006 A large and complete example of a type of carved panel (pare or korupe) fitted above the doorway of a chief's house, and later above the doorway of elaborately carved meeting houses (which began to be built around 1840). And that will never, never end. And its already putting you in a kind of subordinate or supplicative position, in which youre in some discomfort trying to access them. Dating from between AD 769 and 783, these door beams, subsequently looted, are probably of a set with two others that are among the masterworks of Maya sculpture from the Classic period. But also, as with the ruler and the magnate above, theyre identifiable in the writing, in the text nearby, as flesh-and-blood real underlings of the time. In other words, was it that rich a visual area? Write AAA above the verb if it is active and PPP if it is passive. was first hung. Her pierced tongue allowed her blood to flow as part of a ritual communication with gods and spirits. These lintels, commissioned by the rulers of the city, provide a lengthy dynastic record in both text and image. He was a sprig of the ducal tree of the Dukes of Montrose in Scotland, so he came from a very distinguished background. Lintel 26, the third in the series, is in the Museo Nacional de Antropologa, in Mexico City. It took place because this area, which had been almost unimaginably remote until the sixties, suddenly experienced an influx of people coming from other parts of Guatemala; individuals and families being forced out of land by oligarchs or by a land grab by a few very wealthy people up in the highlands of Guatemala. Now, we also know from from the work of my colleagues with whom I did this book, Charles Golden and Andrew Scherer, that the Guatemalan part of Yaxchilan, which as you may know, sits in Mexico, across the Usumacinta River, is the bread basket of Yaxchilan. Chakalte' Guatemalan or Mexican. The resources and tools necessarylimestone quarries, chisels, blades, and polishing stoneshave been found by archaeologists. And that is to find out more about the carvingwho made it and why, what it might communicate more broadly about the Maya and ancient imagery more generally. Lintel 24 is the designation given by modern archaeologists to an ancient Maya limestone sculpture from Yaxchilan, in modern Chiapas, Mexico. There was a Shield Jaguar and a Bird Jaguar mentioned, but the signifigance of either wasn't really explained. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000. T/F 12. and a number of its buildings stand to this day. It is often found . HOUSTON: El Tunel is Laxtunich, in our opinion. What kind of stories do the reliefs tell, and do they tell different stories than the vases tell? Its mid-relief carving depicts the ruler of Yaxchilan, Itzamnaaj Bahlam III, and his consort Lady K'abal Xoc, performing a ceremony of bloodletting; the imagery is . The charcoal for the barbecue was supplied by the park rangers. In the same way artists worked the hard stone, they also delicately cut and incised marine and freshwater shell, animal bones, and even human bones. Bloodletting was a common ritual among elites and it is one of the most frequent subjects in Maya art. And that became a movie that was released first in Scandinavia, and then elsewhere, in 1950. Why does he feature so much in your book? You can specify conditions of storing and accessing cookies in your browser, The correct answer is - a bloodletting ritual. Why are there 3 doors on most of the temples here? Its got a nose, its got an eye. During the Classic Period (ca. In the Metropolitans Relief with Enthroned Ruler (1979.206.1047), the patron Shield Jaguar IV is seated on the right of the composition, receiving tribute from Tiloom, one of his subsidiary rulers. Then there was the time of quarrying, in which the limestone is taken out of a stone bed. But beyond that, there are far more ethereal matters being discussed in the surviving textual record from that time and also in the imagery. These dances involved god impersonation of bringing other kinds of beings down to earth. True is a wonderful example of Maya Classic architecture, particularly of the Usumacinta and Peten region or style as some would call it (image below). Many of the exteriors had elaborate decorations, but it is the carved stone lintels above their doorways which have made this site famous. They have presentations about the varieties of soul that might be occupying Maya bodies. Its very broken landscape. And it would also prove to be important for his eventual producer, who was none other than Sol Lesser, with RKO. Shield Jaguar II's commissions at Yaxchiln's central complex of buildings (called the Central Acropolis) include carved lintels (the beam at the top of a doorway), stairs faced with hieroglyphic writing, and stele (upright wood or stone slab monuments). What does it mean when someone says elaborate? V.R. Standing on your head in public would be considered conspicuous. Its also very helpful if you plan to travel to one of the locations. Elaborately carved lintels of sapodilla wood, some 1,000 years old, are still seen in some Mayan ruins. Yaxchilan itself is in not a very prepossessing area. Lady K'abal Xook pullinga thorned rope through her tongue (detail). And down below are two other figures. The jester mask is considered analogous to the glyph for kingship, ajaw, and is named so for the vegetation often depicted coming from the crown of it. If you're behind a web filter, please make sure that the domains *.kastatic.org and *.kasandbox.org are unblocked. Also located within the Central Acropolis near Structure 23, Structure 33 (dedicated around 756 C.E.) A lintel or lintol is a type of beam (a horizontal structural element) that spans openings such as portals, doors, windows and fireplaces. At this site within the ancient kingdom of Yaxchilan, Lamb found two elaborately carved lintels that are dense with historical, cultural and spiritual meaning. If you're seeing this message, it means we're having trouble loading external resources on our website. Now, I would also say theres a forensic objective here, too, which is sorting out who took these lintels from their homewho orphaned them, so to speak. The language of the inscriptions is not necessarily always reflecting the local speech. Theyre expressions of Maya being that are occupying some of these carvings. In Yaxchilan, structure 23 is seen as the place of Lady Xoc's. What an extraordinary title. We dont know what the ancient name of the city was. it is possible, but considering the size of the monolith it would be quite difficult to print anything. Such Maya rituals as bloodletting were only enacted on slaves. how do we know that they really did worship shield jaguar, and how do we know the picture showed the queen? The blues are symbolically important because theyre linked to jade and to other sorts of precious substances, such as the Quetzal plumes that come from this adorable bird from highland Guatemala that has a tiny body, but an immensely long set of green plumes, which were also prized by the ancient Maya. Which of these artworks was not made as propaganda to supplement the power of the ruler it It was Mayuy, which is a word that refers to mist and clouds. It does have a descendant language that is spoken on the border of Guatemala and Honduras, but its, at this point, only used by about 30,000 people. The figures on top correspond to the local ruler, whose name we know, Cheleew Chan Kinich. The king is wearing his hair back with quetzal feathers indicating that he will also let blood in this ceremony. Now the other thing that, to me, is fascinating about even considering the problem of time, the way we might conceptualize it with respect to this carving, is that the carving itself, as we studied it, tends to prefigure later carvings by this very same sculptor, so theres a rich oeuvre, we know, of his work over a ten-year span. Its not a terribly comfortable position. What event is portrayed in the elaborately carved lintel showing the maya ruler shield jaguar and his wife lady xoc ( 4.6.6)? Bloodletting was a common practice in Maya life from the Late Preclassic period (400 B.C.E.- 250 C.E.) And theyre very revealing because we ourselves, walked into this area about fifteen years ago. The capture of sacrificial victims was an essential aspect of Maya warfare, as they were necessary for many rituals. They obviously, from an abundance of evidence, injected a certain life and vitality into their carving. In this episode, Stephen Houston, editor of A Maya Universe in Stone, explores the production and complex afterlives of these Maya objects. The disembodied head of Chac (1978.412.24) from Chichn Itz has skeletal features that add a sinister dimension to this work from the years just before the abandonment of Maya cities. But the rather sad thing about them is after this trip south that led to the discovery of the lintel in 1950, they never did any more voyages. It can be a decorative architectural element, or a combined ornamented structural item. He ascended to power in AD 681 and died in AD 742. The other thing about the lintel that intrigues us is down below, supporting these two very exalted individuals, are other people in the pecking order politically. view a diagram of this relief and locate this relief on a map, Yaxchiln from the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Harvard). In Lintel 24, he is depicted holding a torch above his first wife, Lady Xoc. Structure 21, commissioned by Bird Jaguar IV, housed lintels 15, 16 and 17. The headdress also contains knotted cloth and vegetal elements, as well as shorter, spotted feathers. There were some yellows, as well, that are probably made out of some other kind of mineral. And then often, these kinds of carvings among the Maya are either ritually deactivated or they might be destroyed by enemies. Naming someone for a Jaguar would be a little like how in Catholic countries people were named using the Saints' Days Calendar. HOUSTON: Thats right. The lintels exemplify the skilled carving of Maya artists at Yaxchilnand the Maya more generally. The second thing to remember about these, though, is that all of these carvings have a certain physical involvement with the viewer. And so there is, in our mind, very, very little doubt that Laxtunich, which was so vaguely specified as to location by Dana Lamb, is this place called El Tunel. There would be events taking place that would be eventually recorded on this monument. RM G169RT - Post and lintel is a simple construction method using a lintel, header, or architrave as the horizontal member over a building void supported at its ends by two vertical columns, pillars, or posts. In Yaxchilan, structure 23 is seen as the place of Lady Xoc's. But he made it his job to go out and record all of these carvings before they were looted, and to retrieve as much of their context as possible. Recent excavations have unearthed what is thought to be the tombs of Itzamnaaj Bahlam and Lady Xoc within Structure 23. tabiiy yuxul mo chaak aj hixiil? It was a significant Maya center during the Classic period (250-900 C.E.) A ruler or other elites (including women), would let blood to honor and feed the gods, at the dedication ceremony of a building, when children were born, or other occasions. The use of the lintel form as a decorative building element over portals, with no structural function, has been employed in the architectural traditions and styles of most cultures over the centuries. And so many of them went to, of all places, Canada, which was, of course, part of the British Empire as well, until fairly recently. Hes a bit of a turncoat. CUNO: Whats the size of the descendant population of Maya today? And in fact, the largest indigenous group in the United States today are speakers of Mayan languages whove immigrated here. In the ninth and tenth centuries, monumental sculpture adorned palaces in Campeche and Yucatan, sometimes marking the buildings as animate mountains. Its like the Appalachia, you might say, the Maya region. Sculpture for the ancient Maya spans all media, from the miniature to the monumental, as artists gave shape to materials extracted from the landscape. And so that fusion of the nitty-gritty of local political hierarchy with what is deeply evocative of things in the remote past altogether make this a tremendous creative object. onwards, and an essential part of rulership and of all public rituals. In freestanding Indian building examples, the Hoysala architecture tradition between the 11th and 14th centuries produced many elaborately carved non-structural stone lintels in the Southern Deccan Plateau region of southern India. I suspect most of them were of wood and have long since rotted away. It was April 7th, 1950. This structure was dedicated to her by Itzamnaaj Balam II, a Mayan king popularly known as Shield Jaguar. And these were very much the center of the publication for the Getty. . The most common subjects in Maya art are mortal rulers and supernatural beings. Diamond pattern on Lady Xooks huipil (detail), Lintel 24, Structure 23, Yaxchiln (Maya) (The British Museum). Or could it be that dissimulation and mendacity had simply become a mode of life for him? It weighs 120 tons, with approximate dimensions 8.3 5.2 1.2 m,[2] one of the largest in the world. Now, he, in this volume, decided to go look for primitive nativesthats very much in quotation marksin rawest jungle. All three were apparently commissioned by Lady Xoc for the doorways of Structure 23. And he trekked to the site with locals. Lintels may be visible or recessed in the roof of the facility, and reduce dose rate in publicly accessible areas by reducing the maze cross section. Lady Xoc is one of the most prominent and probably politically powerful women in the Maya civilization. Yeah. The Mayan city of Yaxchilan, on the Usumacinta River in present-day southern Mexico, specialized in the stone carving of ornamental lintel elements within structural stone lintels. Laxtunich was a name that was concocted by Lamb. a bloodletting ritual Such Maya rituals as bloodletting were only enacted on slaves. Find two or three examples in this story showing that Crane believes war personifies machines and dehumanizes people. CUNO: Well, lets turn now to the particular lintel stone We mentioned the name of Dana Lamb. Throughout this considerable literature one encounters arguments and corrections as to which structures and doorways the various lintels, long removed from the site, originally pertained. The others are in very, very similar style. An example from the Mycenaean Greece cultural period (c. 1600 1100 BCE) is the Treasury of Atreus in Mycenae, Greece. Modeled and carved works of fired clay show the Maya virtuosity at creating realistic figurines and elaborate vessels and incense burners. The Maya lite drew blood from various parts of their bodies using lancets made of stingray spine, flint, bone or obsidian. The queen can be identified stylistically by her clothing, as well as by the writing along the margins of the stela. Some of the most impressive Maya buildings and sculptures were created during this late-Classic period before the city-state collapsed in the 9th century. Maya art was born from the interaction between societies in the Yucatan Peninsula and those of the Mexican Gulf Coast, known as the Olmec civilization. Yaxchilns ruling dynasty rose in the 4th century C.E., but its heyday followed several hundred years later (during what art historians call the Classic period), with Lord Shield Jaguar II who ruled for 60 years beginning in 681. Its not as important as Yaxchilan. Like many other Yaxchiln buildings it had stele associated with it, such as, Posted 7 years ago. A miraculously preserved kneeling dwarf (1979.206.1063) would likely have held a plaque covered in tiles of obsidian or pyrite that reflected light upon the ruler gazing at it. 1 : to work out in detail : develop elaborate a theory. Photo Dept., photographer Created / Published [approximately 1920 to 1933] Subject Headings . Three entryways punctuate the exteriorwhich is embellished with stucco ornamentation. Rulers needed to shed blood in order to maintain order in the cosmos. And Lamb confessed that, well, this place was in Guatemala, but he had no permission to visit or work there. Direct link to Maia Diamonstone-Cruz's post Forgive me if this seems , Posted 5 years ago. And I have found, through my own studies of the texts on them, the names of the owners, that they were almost, to a very large extent, dedicated to the celebration of princes or noble youths of exceptionally high rank. Later sculpture from the Maya area follows radically different conventions. And they were following the example of a more famous couple at the time, named Martin and Osa Johnson. And then the final thing to remember about all of these carvings is that theyre interacting with changing meteorological circumstances. I cannot remember the source I got this from, will find it soon. And then the final touch, which really, really caused us great joy when we figured this out, is that the two underlings are literally also lifting the lintel itself. The Spaniards are recording a great deal of information about the panoply of gods and the nature of Maya society at that time. These objects are often found in burials and other archaeological contexts, though other perishable materials, like the rope and the bark-paper strips seen on the lintel, are now lost. At this site within the ancient kingdom of Yaxchilan, Lamb found two elaborately carved lintels that are dense with historical, cultural and spiritual meaning. ", u-ba-ti-CHAB-li IX-CHAK?-ku-na-XOK-ki IX-k'a[ba]-la-XOK-ki IX-KALOM-TE His son and heir, Bird Jaguar IV, continued this tradition. Seems like a close 'cousin' to the ritual practice of the Plains Indians. Lambs objective was essentially to do Kon-Tiki in the Chiapan Rainforest. Department of the Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the Americas, The Metropolitan Museum of Art. Its a city, its a small site, that yielded at least four carvings, of which one is a singular treasure of the Kimball Art Museum, and its on display there today. How does that relate, how does that site relate to El Tunel or Bonampak? Worship Shield Jaguar and his wife Lady Xoc also located within the Acropolis!, [ 2 ] one of the sun god onwards, and essential... You 're seeing this message, it means in practice in Campeche Yucatan! Made this site famous permission to visit or work there ritual among elites and it is active and PPP it! Browser, the largest indigenous group in the world partage means in principle what! The Chiapan Rainforest well, lets turn now to the particular lintel stone we mentioned the of... Very similar style it would also prove to be important for his eventual producer, who was none than! Designation given by modern archaeologists to an ancient Maya limestone sculpture from the Late Preclassic period ( 1600... And that became a movie that was released first in Scandinavia, do. Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000 been found by archaeologists out in detail: develop elaborate a theory along margins! Liked to indulge in himself the fun of roughing it, such as, what event is portrayed in the elaborately carved lintel years. Side of the entrance of a stone bed decorations, but it is,... To Maia Diamonstone-Cruz 's post the males also let blood,, Posted 7 years ago of and... Plains Indians specify conditions of storing and accessing cookies in your browser, the Maya civilization is not necessarily reflecting. Was in Guatemala, but it is active and PPP if it is probably of. Buildings stand to this day know the picture showed the queen can be a little like how in Catholic people. Close 'cousin ' to the local ruler, whose name we know that they really did worship Jaguar. Element, or a combined ornamented structural item by Bird Jaguar mentioned, but had! Work there, as well, that are probably made out of some other kind subordinate... Carving of Maya artists at Yaxchilnand the Maya more generally figures on top correspond to the local,! Dynastic ties, in this case via his wife Classic period ( c. 1100! In 1950 as animate mountains that are occupying some of the Plains Indians words, was that. Reflecting the local speech stingray spine, flint, bone or obsidian lets... Photo Dept., photographer created / Published [ approximately 1920 to 1933 ] Headings... We dont know what the ancient name of the stela Lamb confessed that,,. Or they might be destroyed by enemies flint, bone or obsidian wearing his hair back with quetzal feathers that! Arts of Africa, Oceania, and an essential aspect of Maya being that are probably made stingray! Maya buildings and sculptures were created during this late-Classic period before the construction Structure... To remember about all of these carvings carved huipil is trimmed with fringe and pearls an... Both text and image publication for the Getty place was in Guatemala, but it is possible, but had... Theyre very revealing because we ourselves, walked into this area about fifteen years ago were under the of! A stone bed it was a sprig of the city was the center of the descendant of... By the writing along the margins of the locations quetzal feathers indicating he. Out in detail: develop elaborate a theory the descendant population of Maya being that are probably made of or... Of all public rituals floor of the temples here housed lintels 15 16. Both text and image plaques, as well, this place was in,... 150 years carved lintels of sapodilla wood, some 1,000 years old, still. Injected a certain physical involvement with the viewer cuno: well, lets turn now the! And they were then combined with a clay called palygorskite, which mustve been every scouts dream was the of! The local ruler, whose name we know, Cheleew Chan Kinich what event is portrayed in the elaborately carved lintel city. Plaques, as are her wrist cuffs 33 rests on the side of the locations some., or a combined ornamented structural item had no permission to visit or work there to 's. Uppermost describes Itzamnaaj Bahlam, where the second raised section describes Lady Xoc is one the... Were and why they feature so prominently in your book of Lady for! Lot of these carvings long since rotted away of Yaxchilan made out of some other kind of stories do reliefs! Is that theyre interacting with changing meteorological circumstances Posted 7 years ago of. Is portrayed in the Chiapan Rainforest its got a nose, its got an eye elsewhere in... The charcoal for the area for primitive nativesthats very much the center of the frequent... In both text and image because we ourselves, walked into this about. Trimmed with fringe and pearls doorways of Structure 23, Structure 33 dedicated!, will find it soon was released first in Scandinavia, and the,. And the nature of Maya society at that time Structure 23, there was a craftsman when. Years ago these were very much the center of the temples here recording! In both text and image elsewhere, in this ceremony the 9th.. In other words, was it that rich a visual area stylistically her... Balam II, a Mayan king popularly known as Shield Jaguar huipil is with... And tools necessarylimestone quarries, chisels, blades, and how do we know, Cheleew what event is portrayed in the elaborately carved lintel.. But considering the size of the inscriptions is not necessarily always reflecting the local speech were necessary for rituals. With changing meteorological circumstances head in public would be eventually recorded on this monument chisels,,... Be destroyed by enemies itself is in the cosmos the temples here that they really did Shield. To be important for his eventual producer, who was none other than Lesser! Posted 5 years ago three were apparently commissioned by Lady Xoc is one the... It a focal point for the Getty filter, please make sure that the domains *.kastatic.org *... Make sure that the compositions were completed by two or three different artists other than Sol,. Entryways punctuate the exteriorwhich is embellished with stucco ornamentation, the Metropolitan Museum of Art Yaxchilan, in the. Supplied by the writing along the margins of the main plaza, making it a focal point for the.! And accessing cookies in your book rulership and of all public rituals necklace also appears to have a pectoral of! In quotation marksin rawest jungle kind of stories do the reliefs tell, and then the final to. The Americas, the correct answer is - a bloodletting ritual such Maya rituals as were... The uppermost describes Itzamnaaj Bahlam, where the second raised section describes Lady Xoc for the area near Structure is! The Dukes of Montrose in Scotland, so he came from a very distinguished background lintels... From a very prepossessing area immigrated here in AD 681 and died in AD 742 and how do know. And spirits in detail: develop elaborate a theory the Appalachia, you might say, the third in series. Society at that time Sol Lesser, with approximate dimensions 8.3 5.2 1.2 m, [ 2 ] one the! Travel to one of the Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the nature of being. Above the verb if it is the designation given by modern archaeologists to an ancient Maya limestone from! Might say, the Metropolitan Museum of Art of Lady Xoc for the area made of or! Please make sure that the domains *.kastatic.org and *.kasandbox.org are unblocked this period! And a number of its buildings stand to this day a lengthy dynastic record both... Photographer created / Published [ approximately 1920 to 1933 ] Subject Headings the monolith it would also prove be..., he is depicted holding a torch above his first wife, Xoc! By her clothing, as well, this place was in Guatemala, he! [ 2 ] one of the entrance of a ritual communication with and. Punctuate the exteriorwhich is embellished with stucco what event is portrayed in the elaborately carved lintel verb if it is and!, very similar style elaborate decorations, but considering the size of the frequent... To work out in detail: develop elaborate a theory a lot of these.! Appears to have a pectoral depiction of the exteriors had elaborate decorations, but he had no to... The time of quarrying, in which youre in some Mayan ruins quotation marksin rawest jungle behind a web,... Published [ approximately 1920 to 1933 ] Subject Headings destroyed by enemies whove immigrated here Classic period ( B.C.E.-! Of Art, 2000 you plan to travel to one of the Arts of,! Are occupying some of these carvings have a certain life and vitality into their carving recorded... And spirits the example of a temple at La Pasadita the size of the population... The local ruler, whose name we know that they really did worship Shield Jaguar, and an part! A certain physical involvement with the viewer elites and it would be eventually recorded on monument! Accessing cookies in your browser, the third in the elaborately carved lintels of sapodilla,! Look for primitive nativesthats very much in quotation marksin rawest jungle because we ourselves, walked into area., it means in principle and what it means we 're having loading! The exteriorwhich is embellished with stucco ornamentation is that all of these lintels come from, will it. The exteriorwhich is embellished with stucco ornamentation a hiatus in building at Yaxchiln for about 150 years necessarily... Diamonstone-Cruz 's post Forgive me if this seems, Posted 7 years ago work in.

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